As it happened: Harris, Martin, and McDonald spar on crime, climate and coalition options in final leaders' debate
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The leaders of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin went head to head in the final debate of the 2024 general election campaign on Friday night.
The debate saw the three main party leaders — Simon Harris, Micheál Martin and Mary Lou McDonald — set out what they hope to achieve if leading the next Government.
Here's how the final TV debate of the campaign unfolded:
Now on to questions of trust, with Ms McDonald being asked about the controversy around former Sinn Fein press officer Michael McMonagle.
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She says that she has no issues with publishing the report on governance within her party.
Mr Harris is now being asked about John McGahon, saying that if he had a criminal conviction he would not be running while highlighting that there are two Fine Gael candidates in Louth.
Asked why anyone would trust Fianna Fáil after they pledged not to go in with Fine Gael in 2020, Mr Martin refers to his leadership as Taoiseach during the pandemic.
He says that the political system is very fragmented now and that he supported a minority government to his own political disadvantage.
And that’s it! The final leaders debate of the general election is over, with just a few days left to go before polling day this Friday.
The debate is getting on to the coalition options.
Mr Martin pushing back on any assertion that a party who gets 20% in the election is entitled to get into government.
Pressed if he is being arrogant to continue to oppose government with Sinn Féin, Mr Martin says that it is an “extraordinary proposition” to go into government with a party that does not align on core principles.
Mr Harris says that Fine Gael opposing going into government with Sinn Féin is not a personal matter, but it’s due to policy differences.
Ms McDonald said that as the campaign started, the “two lads thought that they would just walk back into government”.
She uses her catchphrase of “Tweedledum and Tweedledee” in reference to Mr Martin and Mr Harris.
“There is political life beyond Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael,” she adds.
The Fianna Fáil leader is defending his party’s record over 100 years, saying it has gone from one of the poorest in Europe to one of the wealthiest.
Mr Martin adds that Sinn Féin refused to engage with Irish politics for much of the last 100 years.
Climate action is up now.
Mr Martin says that a Friends of the Earth report which criticises Fianna Fáil’s manifesto on climate action was “unfair”.
He defends the party’s record on climate, saying that Fianna Fáil worked to pass new climate legislation as well as sign up to the EU’s Fit for 55 programme on climate.
Mr Harris is asked about a meeting between Paschal Donohoe and Michael O’Leary, which was used to discuss general matters.
He insists that the meeting itself was fine, while insisting that the airline chief does not have any say on Fine Gael’s policy.
Ms McDonald is asked about carbon taxes, saying that they were designed to change behaviours and not for revenue raising.
“I think carbon taxes are lazy, I think they are punitive,” Ms McDonald adds.
All three of the party leaders insist that they do not support the Mercosur trade deal.
Crime is up next, with party leaders being reminded that it now a year on from the Dublin riots, with comparisons being made against the UK where rioters were quickly prosecuted and jailed.
Mr Martin that there is a problem with Ireland’s justice system, saying that it has taken a year for prosecutions to take place here.
“It’s an objective, honest analysis,” Mr Martin says, but he declines to criticise Fine Gael on their record in justice.
The Sinn Féin leader says that she does not regret the position her party took after the riots, where she called for the Justice Minister and Garda Commissioner to resign.
She highlights the Dublin city walkthrough done by Helen McEntee after the riots, flanked by gardaí, to proclaim that the city was safe.
Mr Harris criticises Ms McDonald, saying that nobody in Fine Gael have picked up a Garda killer from prison. He also highlights that Ms McDonald held a press conference at a crime scene, which he says was to her own political advantage.
But Mr Harris does admit that there are “real issues” with Dublin city and highlights his establishment of a taskforce on the city centre.
Here's a third cartoon from Harry Burton satirising some of the interactions between party leaders tonight:
And we’re back from an ad break, with the debate now due to focus on health.
Host Miriam O’Callaghan raising her interview with Aoife Johnston’s family, asking if her death in UHL was a “terrible indictment” of Ireland’s health service Mr Martin admits that it is a “terrible indictment” of UHL, while saying that her death was a “shocking incident that should not have happened”.
He adds that people should go to their local emergency departments, while saying that there needs to be a “whole new approach” to EDs.
Mr Harris is asked about scoliosis waiting lists, particularly asked about the ongoing waiting lists for children.
He says that cutting the waiting list is a priority for Fine Gael.
Ms McDonald is asked about the NHS in Northern Ireland, and she lays the blame of long waiting lists at “Tory austerity”.
She calls for a new model three hospital for the Midwest, while saying that the matter is “abundantly clear”.
Mr Harris agrees, saying that there was a “hames” made of the reconfiguration of healthcare.
Mr Martin and Mr Harris now sparring on healthcare, with the Fianna Fáil leader saying that the Fine Gael manifesto doesn’t provide for further funding for healthcare staff.
Mr Harris says that this isn’t true and that he is sure that Mr Martin has made an error rather than attempting to intentionally mislead the public.
The Tánaiste says that Stephen Donnelly has been the best health minister for women’s healthcare.
Housing is the latest topic, with host Sarah McInerney raising the Housing Commission report calling for a “radical reset” in housing.
Mr Martin responds, saying that it’s not just about a “sort of magical reset right now”, while highlighting a suite of measures carried out by his party while in government – including a new planning bill.
He says that “we do not need to go back to the drawing board” and that Fianna Fáil has plans to get the country up to 60,000 houses a year.
The Fine Gael leader is questioned about Eoghan Murphy’s book, where he said that Fine Gael’s priority was not on housing.
Mr Harris responds, saying that Mr Murphy set out the context on this due to a priority on Brexit, while saying that housing is now a main priority.
He rejects assertions that Fine Gael was putting party before country over housing, with a quick dig at Mr Martin saying that Fine Gael have never crashed the country.
On the Sinn Féin leasehold scheme, Ms McDonald is asked if banks will lend over the scheme. She says that Sinn Féin have heard “loud and clear” concerns by the Banking and Payments Federation over the plan She says that, in government, when the scheme is designed, that is when banks step in.
Ms McDonald accuses both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil of not understanding the scale of the housing crisis.
On homelessness, Mr Harris said that social housing allocations must be changed to priorities homeless families.
Asked where Sinn Féin would get the builders to construct 97,000 social homes by 2030, Ms McDonald said that there is “considerable capacity” within the system. Pressed on this, Ms McDonald that they need to fix existing apprenticeship schemes to reduce the time they take to complete.
Mr Martin is asked about rent pressure zones, which he says were introduced by consensus. He says to help renters, Fianna Fáil would hike the renters tax credit to €2,000.
He says that there will be reform of the rental sector, but that this doesn’t mean further regulation that might chase landlords from the market.
Pressed that there is not definitive evidence that landlords are fleeing the market, Mr Harris says that it is his belief that landlords with one or two properties are selling up.
Ms McDonald rejects that a rent freeze would make apartments under construction unviable.
Here's another cartoon from Harry Burton poking fun at some of tonight's exchanges:
On cost-of-living, Mr Harris says that while the country is well-off, there has been a “real impact” on individuals due to rapid inflation.
He says that within 100 days of government, Fine Gael would cut the VAT rate on food services as well as a PRSI rebate for small businesses.
Mr Harris adds that he will not apologies for one off payments, but that the next government must look at costs faced by families every day.
Put to him that Fianna Fáil was in government while energy prices spiked, Mr Martin cited the impact of both Covid and the war in Ukraine.
He said that efforts to reduce energy prices could be done within six to nine months, saying that legislation needs to change to ensure energy users do not pay for the upgrade of the grid.
Mr Martin highlights free school books as a measure brought in by Fianna Fáil.
Ms McDonald said that Sinn Féin want to examine every mechanism to reduce the price of electricity, while criticising the government for hiking fuel excise in recent years.
She denies that her party is attempting to hollow out the tax base with cuts to USC and abolishing property tax, saying that their proposals are “very balanced”.
In particular, Ms McDonald accuses Fianna Fáil of having a €1bn black hole within their manifesto, while adding that Fine Gael are mainly proposing tax cuts for the wealthy.
The bailout is also being mentioned, with Mr Harris saying that polling day is the 14th anniversary of Ireland entering into that process.
Ms McDonald said that Ireland should learn from the crash, while saying that Mr Martin led the country into that while Mr Harris lead the country into austerity.
Asked what measures her party would pare back on if there’s a downturn, Ms McDonald isn’t able to give an answer.
Mr Harris is asked the same question, saying that Fine Gael would need to borrow to construct housing, while citing €50bn being put aside for a rainy day.
The Fianna Fáil leader is also asked, saying that his party would instead opt to not further cut taxes but retain further investment in public services.
Mr Martin accuses Ms McDonald of planning to abolish existing investment funds, which the Sinn Féin leader denies.
Asked about the massive overruns on the National Children’s Hospital, Mr Harris admits that it has cost a lot more than expected but that it will be “revolutionary” for children’s health.
The final leaders’ debate of the campaign is kicking off this evening, with Fine Gael leader Simon Harris up first.
He’s being asked about the interaction between himself and Kanturk disability worker Charlotte Fallon, but particularly focusing on contact between his staff and .
He insists that his party offered a statement to , and that there wasn’t efforts to have the clip suppressed.
Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin says that he isn’t sure if that contact between parties and broadcasters is as “normal” as has been set out by Mr Harris.
Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald being asked about her party’s proposal for a review of Gaza coverage, saying that it is a “very reasonable”.
She insists that it would be a peer review, rather than a politician led review of the broadcaster’s coverage.
Ms McDonald said that must be the “gold standard” of reliability and that if she were a journalist, she would welcome a peer review of the broadcaster.
Mr Martin interjects, saying that politicians should not interfere with the impartiality of any media organisation.
Asked about disabilities, Mr Harris says that progress has been made on carers but that Fine Gael want to abolish the means test for carers. He says there is too much red tape within the State on disabilities.
Ms McDonald, on carers, says that the government have failed dramatically on carers, when pressed on what a Sinn Féin government would do for them.
She says that both Mr Harris and Mr Martin should be ashamed, particularly highlighting children with spina bifida and scoliosis.
Mr Martin says that he isn’t happy with the situation, while adding that Section 39 workers should be treated the same as other public sector workers.
He adds that a red line for him to go into the next government would be therapists within special and DEIS schools.
Ms McDonald says that this will provide “zero comfort” to families, given the government did not deal with it throughout their mandate.
Though he will not be present at tonight's debate, People Before Profit leader Richard Boyd Barrett spoke to Paul Hosford on the second episode of the Party Leaders Podcast earlier today.
Listen to the episode below:
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While we wait for kick-off, deputy political editor Paul Hosford has highlighted the six things to look out for ahead of the debate.
And here's our cartoonist Harry Burton with a humorous take on an interaction between a certain party leader and a member of the public in Cork last week.
You can follow Harry on social media at @HBToons - his X/Twitter profile is here.