Paschal Donohoe interview: ‘It would be great if we were all in the same building’
Of Examiner Finance, For Moya Paschal Irish Daniel Editor, Political Delivering Mcconnell 2021 On Nolan Back Interviewed The Budget Picture: By Minister Donohoe,
Just 24 hours after he and Michael McGrath delivered their first budget together, the certainty of Paschal Donohoe’s message of hope is already being tested.
As we sit in his expansive office in the Department of Finance for this interview, word filters through that an unscheduled Cabinet meeting has been called to discuss the escalation of Covid-19 restrictions to level 4 for counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.
Such is the short notice of the meeting, the minister has not yet received his Cabinet memorandums as to what course of action is recommended.
“I genuinely can't inform you of that for the simple reason that I don't have my cabinet papers I don't have the recommendation yet.
"And I'll be going to that Cabinet sometime this evening after this interview.
"But clearly what the government has to consider is what are the public health consequences of what's going to happen in Northern Ireland.
"And I would imagine what will be on the Cabinet agenda is how we respond to that,” he says.
The Cabinet ultimately did approve a move to level 4 for those counties.
While many in the Government are livid with the refusal of the northern executive to adopt an all-island response to Covid, Mr Donohoe says Dublin is doing all it can to achieve some element of coordination to combat the explosion in positive cases.
“We have to respect though the views of the Northern Ireland executive in terms of decisions they make, and a degree of integration they think is possible with the choices we make,” Donohoe says.
“And Simon Coveney and Stephen Donnelly are working hard to try to achieve a degree of coordination.
"But I do understand, because of the pressures that they're now facing in relation to this disease, and because of the difficulty in the decision-making process that it that we have more to do, to see how we can achieve coordination,” he adds.
As we were speaking, more than 1,200 cases were confirmed north of the border yesterday as Arlene Foster and Michelle O’Neill announced the lockdown measures.
“But what is happening today with this cabinet meeting shows that we are now within the day going to be responding back to what has happened in Northern Ireland and see what is the appropriate strategy for that part of our country,” he says.
While the €17.7bn package announced on Tuesday is the largest ever seen, questions remain about the basis of Mr Donohoe’s figures.
Seamus Coffey, the UCC economist and former chair of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council (IFAC) concluded that the sums appear to be based upon the likelihood of a full lockdown at some point.
Donohoe says the position is more nuanced than that.
“So, the assumption that we have for next year, is that we would have ongoing regional changes in our health guidance,” he says, confirming that rolling local lockdowns will be a major feature of life here in the coming months.
"For example, there's a scenario headlined in our budget documentation that would see the economy contract for a second year in a row, where the disease and the containment measures to change in a very different way.
"And that does provide the context to many of the debates that we've had in relation to how we can make the right level of public health choice,” he says.
With his fifth budget now behind him, I ask him with the amount of money he had to give away, was it his easiest.
“I would describe it as being fundamentally different than any other budget I've done as opposed to being the easiest,” he says.
“Putting a budget together during a pandemic and in the context of Brexit is certainly not easy."
There has been much criticism of the behaviour of his party leader, Tánaiste Leo Varadkar in recent months in espousing views that are at odds with government policy, pre-announcing government policies before they were officially made public and even on Tuesday tweeting out items in the budget before they were announced.
Is this acceptable I ask Mr Donohoe.
He says it was “no big deal”.
“Well, I think by the time that I got up to deliver the budget, I think Daniel you were better informed than many members of the Dáil that were about to hear it.
"So I think it has to be seen in the context of the fact that despite my very best efforts to try and keep the budgetary process private, lots of information about the budget has already become available before I stand up.
“From my point of view it's no big deal at all because there was maybe somebody in his office trying to indicate the things that were relevant to their government department, but already there is a huge amount of information out there in the public domain,” he says in defence of his leader.
But there are questions being raised about Mr Varadkar’s commitment to making this arrangement work as long as he is not in the Taoiseach’s office, I say.
Mr Donohoe rejects this by saying he is “150% committed” to making it work.
“In all the different engagement that I have with him and that I see him having with the Taoiseach, he is fully committed to finding ways to make this government be successful.
"But I do think you have to give us a bit of context on this government that is historic with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in the same government during a global pandemic and Brexit about to happen,” the minister says.
But he does accept that the government did get off to a difficult start and has made mistakes, particularly in how it announced the pay increases for junior ministers sitting at the Cabinet table.
“Yes, we did get off to a difficult start. And yes, we made things happen to the government and we made decisions that in retrospect, we should have handled differently,” he concedes.
“Some of the issues that have developed shortly after the government was formed in how we communicated on over issues in relation to ministerial pay. And I understand the reaction that did cause,” he admits.
“But I would say in recent weeks a few things are very apparent to me. The first one is there are very strong personal relations between the party leaders. And the second thing is because we have been involved now in making such major decisions, that has brought the government together closer within cabinet and at a senior level.
But he concedes that collegiality was not present in the early days of the new government and says the inability to meet as normal has slowed the building of trust within the coalition.
“It would be great if we were all in the same building so a bit more readily than we're able to do at the moment. And the normal kind of collegiality can develop could have developed quicker.
"And I know that you can't compare being in government, to being in a normal workplace. But like any other workplace, the normal social interaction that leads to the development of personal relations was not present in this government for quite a while,” he says frankly.
In contrast to the perception of the games being played by Mr Varadkar, Mr Donohoe has formed a strong bond with Mr McGrath.
He rejects that he and Michael McGrath are the only grown-ups in government but says he has a “huge respect” for McGrath who he says is a “serious politician.”
As we conclude, Donohoe’s evening is uncertain as he asks his private secretary about when the Cabinet meeting is and when the Fine Gael parliamentary party meeting is on.
All is still unclear, on so many fronts.